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Talk:Bard 10/ red dragon disciple 10/ pale master 20
Starting charisma Just wondering why this build starts with 14 cha? Eventually get +2 from RDD - but will not be able to make use of that 16 cha spell-wise, as pale masters never gain new spells, just spell slots... Blacknight 07:44, 25 September 2006 (PDT) * You'll need at least CHA 13 for 3rd level spells, if you want to use any prior to character level 18. If not, feel free to assign the two extra points elsewhere. INT+2 for more skills? STR+1 to free up an epic feat (trade one Great Strength for Epic prowess, perhaps)? Alternatively, give up Curse Song, take Power Attack instead at level 1, then take Still Spell at level 6, and use some of the extra slots (at least the level 5 ones) for metamagic. Faldred 08:44, 25 September 2006 (PDT) :* Is that need for 3rd level spells a desire to have specific 3rd level spells? My understanding is that the character must be 3rd level in the spell casting class, not have the ability to cast 3rd level spells (see first item in the pale master discussion...) Blacknight 06:26, 26 September 2006 (PDT) ::* I haven't tested it as such. I think it comes down to whether or not you're playing this all the way from level 1 to 40, or just making a 40 level "powerbuild". I try, in general, to put together builds that are not only strong at level 40, but also playable to get there. Though I will admit I haven't playtested all of them. Faldred 07:27, 26 September 2006 (PDT) :*I know this is rather late in coming, but the following is not fully accurate: "You'll need at least CHA 13 for 3rd level spells, if you want to use any prior to character level 18." ::In fact, if you start with a charisma of 12, you will have no third level spells until character level 39. Level 18 is when your charisma gets raised above 12, but new spells cannot be chosen until the next bard level. Of course, if you shift one of the last two bard levels earlier, you could get your level 3 spells as early as level 19. --The Krit 01:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC) Somatic components But don't War Cry and Iron Horn spells have a somatic component since patch 1.69? Then they can fail due to armor, unlike the description of the build. -- 13:11, 18 June 2011 * This article was written in September, 2006, well before patch 1.69. Since then, the only non-cosmetic change appears to be a small correction to the modified critical range. (You can see a complete differential here, if you want.) So, yes, those two spells were given a somatic component in patch 1.69, and no, no one has yet updated this article because of it. What I would be asking instead is whether or not the lack of a somatic component was the reason those spells were chosen. If so, then the spell list should probably be updated. If not, just that one note parenthetical comment should be removed. --The Krit 20:11, June 18, 2011 (UTC) Weapon choice Someone changed the weapon for this build from an 18-20 crit range weapon to a 20 crit range weapon. Since the crit multiplier makes no difference to the effectiveness of dev crit, I'm going to change it back to the more effective weapon. --The Krit (talk) 22:06, March 17, 2013 (UTC) Other weapon/race/feat notes Though it's tough to judge the original builder's concept, some other build variation notes: *If martial weapon proficiency is retained, I would suggest that this toon's focus weapon be a scimitar. That way, the weapon can be self-buffed with keen edge rather than relying on finding a rapier with the keen property. *If the preferred weapon remains rapier, it maybe worth noting that this build can be made to work with elf as the race, also without experience penalty. That removes the need for the martial weapons feat and improves DEX by 2, which may benefit a build targetted at high AC, at the cost of CON (-40 HP and -1 fort saves). - MrZork (talk) 21:13, March 18, 2013 (UTC) * Neither of those options are exactly clear-cut as to what is better. *# The scimitar option is probably worth a note, but the downside is that if a keen scimitar is found, then keen edge becomes useless (unless in a party, of course) and there is no chance to change known spells between levels 8 and 39. (And maybe the environment might have more slashing-resistant than piercing-resistant creatures to balance the traditional longsword?) *# Switching to elf does free up a feat, but then the human bonus feat is lost, so that's a wash. The dexterity increase can increase AC by 1, but that only occurs at a few levels of magical dex bonus: +2, +3, +10, or +11. (At +2 or +3 dex, the human build would use a chain shirt for +4 base / +3 dex AC, whereas the elf variant would have +4/+4. At +10 or +11 dex, the human build would use padded armor for +1/+7, whereas the the elf variant would have +1/+8.) That is probably not worth the loss of hit points. (But maybe worth it for the ability to go to lighter armor -- and lower arcane spell failure -- sooner?) : --The Krit (talk) 01:22, March 19, 2013 (UTC) :* Agreed that neither variation comes without costs. :** WRT 1) Guaranteeing the option of a keen weapon (via spell) even in environments where the item property is rare is an advantage, though it is a small one in environments where permanently keen weapons are common and there isn't a significant trade-off for other item properties. :** WRT 2) I agree that the added DEX is a marginal benefit. But, the author mentions using this toon in unarmored mode for casting without arcane spell failure, so I thought the higher DEX variant was worth mentioning. :: In terms of variations that I would say offer a more clear advantage, spreading out the final bard levels is much more noteworthy. The choice to take no bard levels between levels 8 and 39 is a weakness of this build, IMO, and I am not sure there is much gained from it. A build that took bard level 9 at level 22 would smooth out the AC progression and have an extra bard spell available throughout most of the epics. Additionally, it presents an opportunity to raise the perform skill level to 15 and thereby get full access to the benefits of the level 8 bard song without using equipment slots. And, of course, it would provide an opportunity to swap out spells whose utility has faded at those levels (greater magic weapon and keen edge are both likely candidates in many environments). I am hesitant to muck with someone else's build, but moving that bard level earlier seems quite useful at low costs (delaying PM progression by one level). IMO, anyone actually playing this build before level 40 should consider that change. :: It might also be noted that, for an AC-focused build particularly in low- to mid-magic environments, swapping Hellball for EMA can be an effective way to add undispelllable AC without using equipment slots. :: - MrZork (talk) 04:34, March 19, 2013 (UTC) ::* I don't see a reason for the late bard levels either. The epic spell choice might come down to personal choice or the specific environment. If this build can get its AC up high enough to be largely untouchable, the DR might be worth more than freeing up slots. Meh, this gets into the debates I usually let others get into (while I just go with whatever strikes my whim :) ). --The Krit (talk) 02:10, March 20, 2013 (UTC)